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Note from Stu: for any indy fans out there, I’m selling some Jersey All Pro Wrestling DVDs, I have their entire 2005 run and am looking to let them go at very reasonable prices. There are some great matches on these DVDs like Samoa Joe vs Low Ki, Jay Lethal vs Charlie Haas, Rhino vs Samoa Joe, Harry Smith vs Kevin Steen, Rhino vs Balls Mahoney, Low Ki vs Sonjay Dutt, a really violent three way between New Jack, Sandman, and Danny Demanto, and a four team TLC style match between the SAT, the Backseat Boyz, the Briscoes, and Teddy Hart & Homicide. Anybody who’s interested can email me at stupwinsider@yahoo.com and we can discuss.
Okay, now with all my shilling out of the way, let’s get on to the content! The day after this past Christmas, Alfonso Castillo of Newsday sat down with ROH owner Cary Silkin to discuss various topics relating to his company and some of the ups and downs they’ve had in recent months, and there was a lot of really interesting stuff in there, so I thought I’d take some excerpts from the interview and give my thoughts on Silkin’s remarks.
AC: In as much as you want, what can you say about what happened with Gabe’s firing or what your side of the story was?
CS: A lot of it boiled down to simple business and as a company there needed to be some changes. Gabe was a very successful booker for most of his run. I think historically, six years-plus as a booker might be a record. And, you know, things just weren’t working. And it was the right time to make a change. It’s pretty much as simple as that. He did a tremendous amount of good things in his time, but it had sort of run its course and the change was important.
Cary’s absolutely right, six years is a long time to be a booker, and way too long at that. The simple fact is that no matter how good a booker is, eventually they’re going to get to a point where either through burnout, buckling under pressure of steering the creative direction of a company, a growing ego from your own good press, or any of a million other reasons, they need to at the very least take a break from the job. As far as whether Gabe’s direction was “working†or not, I think part of the problem was that he booked such a couple of strong years in 2005-06 that it was already going to be hard to follow up on, and when you couple that with almost his entire main event crew evaporating over the course of two or three months, Gabe had a lot of things working against him, and another factor may have been that he got so used to working with Joe, Punk, Daniels, Cabana, and the others that he had a hard time adjusting to promoting a new group.
AC: What’s the feedback been from fans? I imagine more than if most companies lost a booker, Ring of Honor’s fans might have been especially attached to Gabe, since he went back to the beginning of the company and I think they really kind of related to him.
CS: I think it’s a vocal minority. The kind of people that are all over message boards and stuff like that, it’s really not the heart of our audience. They’re really not the heart of the audience, and those kind of people are going to comment on anything and everything. So this gave them a real opportunity to sound off. But, you know, the fans love wrestling and that’s what Ring of Honor is about. And when the dust settles, that’s what were continuing to do – to just provide the best possible product.
Cary’s dead on with this one. One of the things I’ve learned in the years I’ve been writing about wrestling on the internet is that if you base your opinion of your own work on what people write about it, either directly to you or elsewhere, you’re going to think you’re the worst person to ever do whatever you do. It used to really frustrate me that I almost never got positive email from people telling me they enjoyed my work, but however long it took to sink in, I eventually came to the realization that people who enjoy something aren’t going to write much about it because they’re busy enjoying it and laughing at all the marks whose life revolves around going on the internet and finding things to complain about, and I do truly believe just based on my own experience that these people are in the minority.
AC: Did you see it as wanting to go in a new direction, or did you see it as wanting to go back to your original direction? Did you feel that some of Gabe’s booking might have gone a little off course in the last year and you wanted to kind of get back to the fundamentals? Or did you feel it was time to just tear everything down and try something new?
CS: Well, I think the product had become more wrestling move oriented than wrestling oriented. And we have such talented guys and I think there was a lot of redundancy in the matches. You know, it’s funny to think about it because we had so many good shows during his run. But it comes down to dollars to and how we’re drawing and how the DVDs are selling, so we needed to make a change.
This is what really matters: when the DVDs stop selling as well as they had been, that means more to those in charge than people bitching on message boards. I think part of the problem with the DVD sales in the last year, year and a half has been that although the wrestling has all been very good, it got so repetitive that a lot of the shows became basically interchangeable. That speaks to Cary’s point about the product becoming wrestling move oriented vs wrestling oriented. It got to the point where the matches were good, but they were all kind of the same.
AC: Why Adam Pearce? What did you see in him? What do you think he brings to the table?
CS: At this point, we don’t even discuss who’s booking, or I don’t discuss who’s booking or what’s going on in booking. Because it’s not important. What’s important is the bottom line product.
Well, so much for that.
AC: As a fan, I’ll make a couple of observations. Some of these shows were going really long, and you did get a sense that – I guess the notion is, if everything is so spectacular it kind of waters down what really needs to be spectacular. So is the move to maybe kind of draw back a little bit on mid-card, under-card stuff, make events shorter?
CS: Yeah, the events – It was just a lot of excess. Too many guys. Too many matches. You’ve experienced it yourself. You’re burned out sometimes by the intermission. And there’s a way, whether there’s a concert or any kind of performance, to be arranged so you don’t get that kind of feeling. And I know in my experience with these shows that we’ve been doing, they’re much more palatable for the fans, and I think they’re better.
I agree with that, the two shows I’ve been to since Sapolsky left had much better pacing, and pulling back on the undercard lets the top matches be the top matches. Too much of a good thing can be a bad thing, and that’s what was happening. I see this as a positive change, and anyone who disagrees hasn’t been to any ROH shows since the change.
AC: Are they noticeably shorter now? What’s kind of the average Ring of Honor show length in the last couple of months?
CS: They’re not extremely shorter, but I think they’re under three hours as opposed to four-and-a-half hours.
For the record, the shows I attended were both in the three and a half to four hour range.
AC: Has there ever been thought given to a sort of “less is more†mentality? Maybe putting out fewer DVDs? Not putting out every show, and making the ones that you put out kind of “must-see†DVDs?
CS: We’ve discussed it, but right now the way our business model is continuing to operate, there’s definitely a demand for us to do every show. If we ever announced that, they’d probably be upset about that too. But right now we’re just continuing with what we’ve been doing the last many years.
Gabe once said that when ROH starts doing less shows and DVDs, that’s when you know ROH is really in trouble. When they’re not only maintaining the number of shows they do, but also expanding into new markets and buying better production equipment, that tells me things are better than some people would have you believe.
AC: Well, that was going to be my next question. I’d be remiss if I didn’t bring this up, because it’s something I’ve been very critical about, and that is the production quality. There’s definitely a feeling by a lot of fans – myself included – that it needs to look better. And that if Ring of Honor really wants to continue growing and wants to be noticed, then presentation has to be a big part of it. Is that something you agree with? And what have been some of the obstacles along the way?
CS: Not only do I agree with it, we’ve officially done something about it, above and beyond just taping that last pay per view. As of this upcoming weekend, we have a fully upgraded system on our own. They’re the equivalent of the cameras used for the last pay per view. They’re being used by our staff under strict training, so starting with the Final Battle weekend, the Philadelphia show, the New York show, and every show further on, we’re going with an incredible upgrade – the same as you can get on the pay per view. We were well aware of the need for that, but it just comes down to – everything is money. But we’re able to do it now, so we’ve done it.
It’s funny, even though it was obvious that ROH had lower production values than ROH or TNA, I never remember anyone making much of a big deal out of it until ROH started looking into upgrading themselves. It’s kind of like how everyone knew smoking was bad all along, but people didn’t really start treating it like the domain of Satan until smoking started getting banned from the bars in 2002-03. In both cases, I think people overreacted quite a bit once somebody actually made a crusade out of it, but really didn’t care too much before that. There are other indies out there who sell DVDs, check out some of them if you want to see really crappy production values.
AC: Because I think there is this tone and feeling among fans that Ring of Honor is struggling in some respects – and you’ve brought up issues of drawing and money – do fans need to be concerned about the future of Ring of Honor, or do you feel that you’re on pretty safe ground for the near future?
CS: No, we’re definitely on safe ground. It’s nice to know that the fans are so worried. But, yeah, we’re doing fine. We wouldn’t have done this expensive production upgrade if we weren’t on safe ground. It would be the last thing we’d be doing. So yeah, everything is on target business-wise.
I don’t necessarily know about them being on target business-wise, because they wouldn’t have made some of the changes they have if things really were where they wanted them to be, but I do believe what Cary says about being on safe ground, and this goes back to what I was saying earlier: they wouldn’t be doing some of the things they’re doing if they weren’t already solid. They’re simply looking to expand right now, not desperately fighting for their lives.
AC: How about in terms of television? Are you still working on it?
CS: We’re still working on it. Nothing to report yet, but you know, we’re still entertaining a few things. So we’ll see what happens this year.
Unless something gets leaked beforehand, of course.
AC: Was the production upgrade with that in mind – kind of, we need to get this looking better if we want to shop it around?
CS: Right, plus, I can say safely without any kind of talk of a boisterous nature, that we do have the best wrestling. So I want to have the best production possible. And the time has come. It’s overdue, but it’s here now. As good as our wrestling in, I’d like to have a total professional crew for every show, but it’s just not good business sense. But we’re doing the best we can.
I absolutely believe the production value increase was done with a TV deal in mind. I’m sure they’re hoping that any network that picks them up will help subsidize some of the costs of running TV. If they do get TV, however, I’ll be interested to see what the situation becomes with their entrance music, because a lot of wrestlers have to use generic entrance music for PPVs, so I would imagine that they’d have to do something similar if they get a TV deal.
AC: Another thing I imagine is a pretty big coupe for you and something you’re excited about, is Ring of Honor’s part in “The Wrestler,†which people are talking about as one of the best movies of the year and is on a lot of best lists. There’s a lot of talk about Oscar contention. I saw it a few weeks ago, and you guys are all over it. Nigel McGuinness is there in a pretty major scene. Necro Butcher is all over it. A few other guys… The climax – really the payoff of the whole movie – happens at a Ring of Honor show. The logo is everywhere. Can you talk a bit about that, how big a deal that is for you and how it came about?
CS: Yeah, we’re thrilled. I was talking to Evan Ginzburg, who does wrestling radio, he’s been in wrestling for years.
AC: Yeah, I know Evan a little bit.
CS: He was the liaison between Darren Aronofksy and the wrestling community. And he introduced them to us. The project started just over a year ago when they came to visit us at the Hammerstein. When they came to the Hammerstein – upstairs at the Manhattan Center – that’s when Nicholas Cage was still booked to be in the movie, and they brought Nicholas Cage. And I was like, “Wow, this is cool.†We were hoping the whole thing would take off, as far as just getting filmed. And we were happy to just be part of it. I said to Evan last night, and probably they would tell you the same thing, Darren Aronofsky’s a brilliant guy, and they had a decent script and certainly some good actors and actresses, but I think this has gone beyond anybody’s wildest expectations about how this would be received. So our participation in it – which would be exciting even if it wasn’t a hit – is very exciting now. And I think it’s just the tip of the iceberg. I mean, it’s really amazing. I saw the movie also. I went to New York Film Festival. And it’s great to see us as the pay off, so to speak. And the guys who have bit parts of the movie, and guys who had some major parts, such as Necro, it’s great. I’m just really pleased. I think this is certainly a catalyst for us to get our name out there to some people who do not know Ring of Honor. That’s the key to the whole thing. We know we have the people who know about us. That’s a small world.
There’s no such thing as bad publicity, and when you’re getting great publicity being part of a highly acclaimed movie, that’s as good an endorsement as ROH could hope for at this point and definitely a sign that things are moving in a good direction.
AC: I know. Imagine that. That’s something that Vince McMahon and Dixie Carter can’t lay claim to – being part of an Oscar nominated film.
I still say Suburban Commando got shafted.
AC: I talked to Darren Aronofsky about how you couldn’t make this movie 20 years ago because there was such a protection of this movie and of kayfabe. A movie that would expose exactly how you blade and how you call a shot, and shows guys in the back going over moves would have been completely unheard of. And here they got all kinds of cooperation from actual wrestling promoters and wrestlers in putting this movie together. Did you have any concerns about exposing the magic behind what you do?
CS: No. Our concern was that we knew it was major motion picture. I’ve seen Darren Aronofsky’s work and he’s very credible and we wanted to be part of it. I didn’t even think about that.
Plus, kayfabe is dead and buried. The genie’s out of the bottle, there’s no sense in sticking to the code when it comes to things like this, not when you have a chance to make money and gain exposure.
AC: Did you think the end result was respectful toward the business? Obviously there were depictions of steroids and drug use and what becomes of some of these wrestlers who are down and out and broke. Did you have any concerns about that?
CS: No. I mean, whether it’s pro baseball or football or wrestling, there’s going to be cases like this. Unfortunately in wrestling there’s been a lot of guy who lose their money and are like, “Well, this is life. Easy come. Easy go.†We weren’t really concerned with that. We sort of knew what we were dealing with. And the final product he came up with, it’s why I think it’s getting such a good buzz. It’s the real deal, unfortunately for a lot of guys who were in it. And it worked.
Unfortunately, I don’t think it will serve as any kind of warning to people as they get into the business. For the people with stars in their eyes, this is probably just going to come off as part of life in professional wrestling.
AC: Let’s talk a little bit about looking back on 2008 and the year for Ring of Honor. Some of the biggest milestones I thought you reached didn’t even happen in your company. That was WWE and TNA both crowning world champions that came out of Ring of Honor in C.M. Punk and Samoa Joe. Did you feel that 2008 was kind of the year that you guys around on the national scene?
CS: Regarding Samoa Joe and Punk, it’s like we know that guys are going to move on. It’s inherent in what the business is and where our place is for now. So I have to be proud. And I think it also says something about the quality of guys who have come through us. And there’s many of them. You can go down the list – Homicide, Alex Shelly…
AC: Evan Bourne.
CS: Right. There’s just a huge list. Guys that are still in developmental, like Colt Cabana, and so on and so forth. But, Joe and Punk – especially Punk, that was just crazy. I was very proud. I got to also enjoy a great moment at Madison Square Garden this summer where through a fluke I was able tot get a couple of seats right up front.
Joe and Punk hitting it big at the same time had to be such a big thrill for everyone who has had anything to do with ROH over the last several years, and it was almost poetic how the top two guys in the company in 2003-05 rose to that top spot at exactly the same time, and yes, it does speak to what kind of talent makes their way through ROH. Other guys have had varying degrees of success since leaving ROH, but ROH now has a proven track record of molding guys into the kinds of talents that WWE and TNA want on their roster. You can frame it as WWE and TNA going shopping there and cherry picking all of ROH’s talent, but ROH has worked from the beginning with the knowledge that most guys aren’t planning on being in ROH for their entire careers. People are going to leave and they know this, but the beauty of ROH’s position is that whenever talent empties out, it opens up spots that hungry young indy workers are chomping at the bit to grab for the opportunity to one day get noticed themselves.
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So there you go, lots of interesting stuff in that interview, and I hope you enjoyed my take on some of what Cary had to say. As always, all feedback can be sent to stupwinsider@yahoo.com and you can catch me on Myspace at www.myspace.com/stupwinsider. Thanks for reading, and see you all tomorrow with my big preview of ROH’s first shows of 2009!
